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Post by Gilly on Mar 21, 2020 20:12:54 GMT
For the record, my motivation this game pretty much fell off a cliff with both the sponsorships (which I maintain are awful game design) and the rounds of inactive boot after inactive boot. I mean, I can do small talk and socialness for the sake of being social, but I don't enjoy it. I find it draining, and needing to do it over 10 or so conversations over a two week span with nothing interesting to talk about was just too much for me.
Although, I do find it amusing that the real things that doomed me weren't even my own messages or lack thereof, but actually how my allies approached things. Wenya Zhu flat out telling Susan about a 4/10/12 alliance during F6, when we need her vote and would be fully set to pagong her afterwards? That's impressively awful. I was all set to be bitter and such at Susan, but after seeing that single message, I can't be. Anyone would side against me after that.
Anyway, @district 1, for the record the decision to send you was almost entirely Kirby's. I went along with it in large part because of my inactivity at the time. I didn't have strong feelings about the vote, and given that Kirby had much more enthusiasm for the game, I figured I might as well let him play it out as he wanted. On his end, I think he just found you randomly untrustworthy (seriously, I don't think either of us had any idea you were actively working against us before the nomination), and figured you were the most likely one to be a power player outside of our 3/4/7/9 alliance.
Finally, @district 3/7.... me siding against you so heavily last round was about half theater. I figured I had a better shot at living going to 8/12 and working with them than hoping you two were actually loyal (especially considering how the information of D1 being nominated leaked to them). While I also figured the "betrayal" wasn't nearly as bad or big of a thing as I was making it out to be, I didn't want D8 and D12 to think I might go back to my old alliances; I figured a D4/10/12 F3 had serious potential, and was hoping to either pull Susan in for a vote or have our side win the challenge. Alas, it didn't pay off, but this is one of the times where I wouldn't actually change anything about how I approached my last round. I still think it was my best chance.
As for me forfeiting the eliminator... honestly, I don't have the time that I used to, and after that last round went down in flames, the prospect is desperately trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat against a very large chance of being sent back to the eliminator immediately. I just don't have the motivation for that, while Kirby seems like he does, and I wish him luck with it. At this point I don't see myself signing up for another Survivor. It's just too much with my current set of commitments.
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Post by Gilly on Mar 21, 2020 20:18:55 GMT
Oh, and also for the record. I actually liked District 7 significantly more than District 3, even after the "blindside". I found Stitch's post-blindside PM to me to be much more open and honest than what Zod sent. Thing is, D7 didn't really trade PM's with me aside that, while Zod seriously kept up messaging on his end. Given that Ulysses definitely preferred a D3 vote, if D7 had been a little more active talking to me, we might have gone after D3 from the outset instead of having a post-challenge switch.
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Post by River Song on Mar 21, 2020 20:23:17 GMT
I mean, hey, I was trying pretty hard to do something other than an inactive boot two rounds in a row lol but those sneaky alliances prohibited anything fun from happening! I think it’s a shame Kirby decided to go after us because honestly I think we would have all been having more fun if we were all still in the game together. I’m at least glad I went out swinging and successfully pulled off a blindside. I can totally appreciate what you’re saying though about how the small talk kept on going because others were comfy with inactive boots. It was a bit tiring to keep up so many PM’s in that manner! I think the sponsorships could have made the game WAY more fun and interesting if freaking Montreal hadn’t joined a game just to see how much chaos he could cause lol. I mean, there’s fun in that, sure, but it does kind of ruin it a bit for players wanting to be in the game for the long haul.
Wow all of my sentences started with “I” yikes how vain of me. In all seriousness, thanks for playing and sharing your thoughts. Although we were randomly rivals but not really, I did enjoy playing with you and hope you are well. I do have a question for you, how strong of an influence did you have on the early alliance you and Kirby created with the others?
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Post by Gilly on Mar 21, 2020 20:27:07 GMT
The early alliance was probably something like 80-90% my doing. This game is close enough to survivor that I wouldn't be comfortable without some sort of alliance I'm part of, and so I basically figured "Alright, here's the active pairs that we really like, odds are they all like each other, let's try to accelerate this and make something formal." Overall, I can't tell if it actually worked to our advantage or not. It broke up at pretty much the first actual test of the alliance, but just having the thing existing probably helped us avoid targeting before then. Regardless, I was very much a fan of D7, and Ulysses from D9 (never really did feel that close to Beetlejuice), and D3 was kinda pulled in part at D7's suggestion and part because I knew they were both active/good players, and liked the idea of having one more vote.
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Post by Shadow on Mar 21, 2020 22:43:00 GMT
Yeah, the inactives/trolling kind of killed it for me early on, I tried really hard to stay motivated but it was really hard when both of my teammates just wouldn't communicate with me.
Speaking of Sponsors are there even any more?
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Post by Effie Trinket on Mar 22, 2020 0:40:43 GMT
So if votes don't change D7's choice is super interesting here.
Currently it's a tie between D10 and D3.
If D7 picks D3 into the eliminator, D10 would be vote.
However, if D7 picks D10, then it actually depends on whether they have D12 higher than D3 whether or not the tiebreaker list goes since it will tie.
Obviously votes could change in the next 6 hours, but depending on D7's action we could actually see a scenario where D3 avoids the Eliminator altogether.
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Post by Dave Strider on Mar 22, 2020 2:39:46 GMT
Yeah, the inactives/trolling kind of killed it for me early on, I tried really hard to stay motivated but it was really hard when both of my teammates just wouldn't communicate with me. Speaking of Sponsors are there even any more? no one else has received any.
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Post by River Song on Mar 22, 2020 2:43:31 GMT
I don't want Zod to lose because I love his confessional and watching him go between being on top of the world to completely unraveling, but I want Zod to lose because I want to talk to him as a fellow spectator lol
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Post by Seneca Crane on Mar 22, 2020 15:53:10 GMT
I think that the feeling of frustration towards the sponsorship can be valid, but you are looking at this game through the lens of survivor, when it isn't.
Like at its core this game is supposed to be about shifting teams working together until they need to battle each other to death in the Eliminator. With that in mind, the sponsorships are not substantially different than a Power of Veto.
That said, giving one to Montreal was an error. The idea was to give a layer of protection to the person who got no say in their partner, but we didn't predict this level of inactivity.
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Post by Seneca Crane on Mar 22, 2020 15:54:10 GMT
Like I cannot overstate that this game isn't survivor and players don't have to play it like survivor. There's no jury to play for. It's just about getting to the end to fight a team you can beat.
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Post by Kat on Mar 22, 2020 17:22:51 GMT
When you’re giving out a reward to whoever places last in a challenge where you can get a decent score just by spending more time on it, you kinda have to expect that the person who gets it is someone who isn’t trying that hard
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Post by River Song on Mar 22, 2020 17:55:48 GMT
When you’re giving out a reward to whoever places last in a challenge where you can get a decent score just by spending more time on it, you kinda have to expect that the person who gets it is someone who isn’t trying that hard Honestly though, I normally am the absolute worst at challenges no matter how hard I try so if we imagine a perfect LSG world where everyone tries their best in every challenge, there is the idea that it would go to some deserving underdog, you know? I really think the sponsorships were a great element of the game (and were true to the Hunger Games), but unfortunately they got prematurely flushed out.
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Post by Peeta Mellark on Mar 22, 2020 21:49:54 GMT
Personally I quite liked the idea of sponsors, I think it's nice to have some kind of twist, the unfortunate thing that happened in this game was both of them being used at the same time, it kinda felt like overkill in a way but that's just bad luck, having only 1 being played would've kept people on their toes a bit
A slight change which could've changed them based on people's worry of them being too powerful would be rather than allowing those who played the sponsor to pick who went in their place, we go back to the winning districts list and the next district on that list would get sent instead. But I can see some pros and cons to this idea too.
Overall given that this is a brand new format, it's an interesting twist and I think like all brand new things there'll be pros and cons to it
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Post by Seneca Crane on Mar 23, 2020 0:03:05 GMT
Absolutely valid. This isn't meant to come across defensively, but for folks with really strong opinions about how the game went and how it "should" have gone, please keep in mind that this was a brand new game completely created by someone who wanted to make something new and share it with the community he loves.
Some amount of bitterness at loss is to be expected, but please also remember we have been managing issues as they arise, processing all feedback (including the negative stream of consciousness feedback), dealing with an absurd number of inactives and folks that dropped out, and now moderating during an actual global pandemic resulting in a shift of life circumstances.
This is not to dismiss valid critiques, but please keep in mind odds are reasonable that we've heard the feedback from someone else and at this point we are trying to run this to completion and to make it as enjoyable as we can.
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Post by Gagigabber on Mar 23, 2020 0:13:18 GMT
Rip Ulysses. I enjoyed him. He was a fun scorned underdog.
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Post by River Song on Mar 23, 2020 0:13:32 GMT
LOL @ Zod rn. My LSG dumbness is going to show because I don’t know how to quote people when I’m on my phone but here’s a grab of Zod’s most recent claim in the eliminator: “I am personally of the opinion that River song wasn't a mastermind because ever since I met her my plan with her was to strap dynamite to around her waist and have her run towards Killy as fast as she could It worked!” And my response: Lol I’ve been suspicious of Kirby and Gilly from almost the beginning. They both seemed nice and social but Kirby was stirring it upppp early on (that’s when I really solidified my theory about them trying to run the game socially) and I brought their subtle shadiness up to multiple people, including YOU! Lol. Susan was the one who pointed me in the direction of D9 being their allies (yeah, I was completely dumb to D7 being their allies, that I admit, and yeah, I kinda thought you were a little bit more of my ally than you actually were, congrats on that) but going after Killy was definitely not put into motion by you. River ain’t anybody’s puppet Zoddy boy! That was something I had been setting up for a few rounds, they just happened to win immunity before I could get them booted So Susan influenced me after she ttold me about D9 BUT I was literally actively trying to save Susan and convinced her to not target D7. So, teamwork makes the blindside dreams work lol.
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Post by River Song on Mar 23, 2020 0:31:16 GMT
I will say this: Zod, I would agree that you are measurably a much stronger player that I am challenge wise. You are also quite the strategist and it was super fun to read your process, makes me wish I had utilized my confessional more! You were fun to play with and even more fun to watch, but if you are out this round it’s your own fault lol. If you live, it’s because you are good at challenges. Part of me hopes you win because I actually would love to see how you get yourself out of this messy bed you made yourself, but that would mean Fen gets the boot and that makes me sad so actually go ahead and come join us here so we can chat more lol
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Post by River Song on Mar 23, 2020 2:11:08 GMT
Zooooooood I know you said you aren't going to be a spec but I've been dying to talk to you!!! Come chat! I will say one bummer for you is that your confessional is the most fun to read at this point but you wrote your confessional so yeah. *insert sad baby yoda meme about wanting Zoddy to come talk to us*
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Post by Kat on Mar 23, 2020 2:14:16 GMT
Booooo
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Post by River Song on Mar 23, 2020 2:39:56 GMT
I am going to go ahead and say that I found this game to be really fun. Sure, I died way earlier than I had hoped and yeah, it was a little lengthy at points but whenever it felt like that it was usually during extensions which were SUPER NICE of the mods to even grant to begin with (extension recipient, here!). I know for me personally, I had a crazy schedule for the last few weeks and the extra time actually allowed me to connect more with people that otherwise wouldn't have connected with. Typically, when I was able to chat, other people were asleep or at work, and vice versa. So that was nice. Also, this is completely different than any game I've played on here before and I really enjoyed that. That may not hold a lot of weight since I have only played a couple games, but, yeah. The challenges were fun and I do think they were a mixed bag as far as skills go. I really, really enjoyed getting to work with a partner on challenges. That was probably one of my favorite parts of the game. I'm not a challenge beast by any means and most of these challenges were a first for me, but I had fun figuring them out as I went along. I am probably also a little biased to how this game went seeing as I had an absolutely amazing partner. Were who I thought to be my closest allies actually not my closest allies? Some, yeah! But that in itself is part of the game and you can't take anything personally. I think the specs were also wonderful and I really appreciated the time put into asking us questions and such.
It's my humble opinion (as someone who really doesn't know a lot about these games) that there was a lot of user error, actually. People kept treating this game like Survivor and worried way too heavily on making bunches of alliances (I think I fell under that, a bit) and speculated too much about all of the potential twists that could happen. This game was all about being able to win challenges and work closely with people who could also win challenges and vote with you. If you played purely for getting by with social game, you were going to lose because no matter what game you're playing if you look like everybody's best friend or give off the impression that you can make everyone else bend to your will, you're going to get stabbed. If you played purely for being a challenge beast, you were going to lose because there is no way you could safely predict winning every single challenge. This game was designed to be cutthroat, just like the actual, you know, Hunger Games lol. Did I find the winning pair being able to automatically send a district into the eliminator unfair? Yeah, but only when it meant I got sent in lol. All the other times it worked nicely to boot out people who were inactive or not directly in my alliance. All that to say, you can't win a game if you can't adapt to it's actual rules and functions, and sometimes you lose because you get unlucky.
That's my rant. It's not eloquent and I very openly admit to not knowing all the things there is to know about these games, but it's my firsthand review lol.
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Post by Queen of Hearts on Mar 23, 2020 17:54:58 GMT
rip zod rip me paying attention to this
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Post by Queen of Hearts on Mar 23, 2020 17:56:03 GMT
i hope wenya zhu wins because it's funny they're still here when they seem to be universally disliked
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Post by Seneca Crane on Mar 23, 2020 18:04:42 GMT
Hunger Games aren't necessarily a popularity contest
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Post by Gilly on Mar 24, 2020 0:10:05 GMT
I think that the feeling of frustration towards the sponsorship can be valid, but you are looking at this game through the lens of survivor, when it isn't. Like at its core this game is supposed to be about shifting teams working together until they need to battle each other to death in the Eliminator. With that in mind, the sponsorships are not substantially different than a Power of Veto. My biggest problem with sponsorships is the question of counterplay. Because if a sponsorship gets played to target you, your only possible counterplay (assuming you aren't holding the other one) is to beat your partner in a challenge. That's it. And if you succeed on this 50/50-ish chance to avoid instant death, your prize is having your partner (for many people their closest ally in the game) eliminated instead. However, there's a second problem, and that's the issue of social commitment. It's true that this isn't quite Survivor, and it isn't quite Big Brother, but it is still very much a social game. In any given Survivor, there's a certain amount of lying that goes on. A lot of it is the vaguely inoffensive "Of course I'm not targeting your alliance, dear enemy!" that neither side really expects to be believed, but there's also a select few backstabs. That moment where you burn all the trust an ally had put into you, burn that bridge and potentially a bunch more, in the hopes of making a big move that takes you further into the game. A big risk, in expectation of a big reward. In Survivor, the hidden immunity idol happens before the votes are revealed. If misdirection or a successful blindside is pulled off, it can be outplayed. In Big Brother, the Power of Veto happens before votes are made in the first place. The risky social maneuvering can wait until after the reward items go through. In Hybrid here, the Sponsorship happens after votes have been made and revealed. It can be used to completely nullify and turn around any successful backstab. It cannot be outplayed; there is no case in which a sponsorship will be wasted uselessly. It combines the "Go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200" nature of the HII with the "Get out of jail free" nature of the Veto, while simultaneously removing any sort of guesswork or risk that might be involved. Mods, I appreciate that you put a lot of effort into this game. I understand it's new, it's different, and that there's a lot of problems to solve in both design and balance. I think a lot of those design decisions paid off, and that the challenges in particular have been very well made. But with all that said, sponsorships are the second most powerful reward item I have ever seen, and I think it's very fortunate that they did not impact the game in a more meaningful manner.
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Post by Effie Trinket on Mar 24, 2020 0:24:38 GMT
In an attempt to keep discussion relevant to the current round i will be locking this once i am home. You have valid points Gilly. The intent of this item was to function more closely to a diamond power of veto in big brother which does happen after hoh decisions occur. In this particular instance it was intended to function similar to the power the immune district had. This was done for several reasons the first of which was to make sure that things were never 100% stale and that the immune pair weren’t the only pair with absolute power. The second was that after one was played a new team would have to go to the eliminator and waiting on a revote or some other choice to occur would have added extra time to this game that would have delayed an already longish schedule. There were other reasons and obviously we never dreamed they would both get played in the fashion they did. It was experimental. Obviously if I choose to run another Hybrid that is good feedback to have regarding how items such as sponsors would work. Im going to direct all further discussion on the matter to the round 8 thread please
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